Be it resolved, the doctrine of Purgatory is biblical.
Affirmative: Abraham V. Llera - Roman Catholic
Negative: Gerry Soliman - Protestant
Affirmative Opening Statement - due Feb 5
Negative Opening Statement - due Feb 5
Affirmative Rebuttal to Negative Opening - due Feb 12
Negative Rebuttal to Affirmative Opening - due Feb 12
5 Questions from Affirmative to Negative - due Feb 19
5 Questions from Negative to Affirmative - due Feb 19
Respnse of Affirmative - due Feb 26
Response of Negative - due Feb 26
Affirmative Conclusion - due March 5
Negative Conclusion - due March 5
Direct, we beseech you, O Lord, our actions by your inspiration, and further them by your gracious assistance, that every word and work of ours may always begin with you, and by you be likewise happily ended.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Affirmative Response to Negative's Five questions
My opponent's Question # 1: You cited 1st Corinthians 3:12 to 15 to prove Purgatory, I would like to know what is the "reward" being spoke [sic] of here and why the other person whose works were burned does not get it despite of, as you claimed, the "fire" here "purges" that person.
My reply: The “reward” spoken of in 1 Cor 3:10-15 is eternal salvation.
My opponent believes that the “reward” spoken of here refers to crowns, medals, and such, which is understandable inasmuch as Protestants believe everyone who’s accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is saved. For Protestants, one's saved only once, one cannot be saved and be saved again; therefore, the “reward” spoken of here cannot be eternal salvation.
But that’s what happens when one tries to twist Scripture. Scripture hits back, exposing the lie.
For, indeed, Scripture abounds with proof that whenever “reward” is spoken about in Scripture, it’s often about eternal life as reward for some good done.
Rom 2:6-8, for instance, shows God giving a reward (“mithsos” in Greek can refer to reward or wage):
[6]For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Then, again, in Rom 14:10-12, we have St. Paul saying:
[10] Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
[11] for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,and every tongue shall give praise to God."
[12] So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Any which way I look at it, I could not see how this can refer to an awards ceremony involving crowns, medals, and trinkets. What’s involved here is eternal life, as shown by all peoples- Christian and otherwise, standing before the Judgment seat of God, calling to mind the Old Testament book of Isaiah who tells us this judgment is about salvation.
Yet, again, in 2 Cor 5:10 Paul we have St. Paul saying:
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
[11] Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.
In the above, St Paul is plainly speaking here about salvation or damnation, the “good or evil” that he’s speaking of. In fact, he tells us he “fears the Lord.” Were it all about marbles, would St. Paul fear for anything?
Further on, in v.20 and in 2 Cor 6:1-2 warns the Corinthian Christians that they have to be reconciled, otherwise they have “received the grace of God in vain.” It’d be totally strange for St. Paul to do that were all that’s at stake is some marbles.
Finally, look at 2 Cor 13:5:
[5]Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? -- unless
indeed you fail to meet the test!
In the above passage, St. Paul warns the Corinthians about the test of salvation—no marbles here.
Do all these sound like St. Paul is speaking of mere marbles here, and not salvation? Could St. Paul be speaking of salvation as the reward in all of the above-cited passages, and, yet in 1 Cor 3:10-15 do a 180-degree turn, and say “Oops, no, no, no, the reward’s all about marbles, and not salvation”?
My opponent's Question # 1 second part: "Why the other person whose works were burned does not get it despite of, as you claimed, the 'fire' here 'purges' that person":
My reply: No, the man still gets the reward- eternal salvation- but only after having been purified in the fires of Purgatory.
In the first place, where does the text say that the man in v.15 loses his reward? There’s none: the man “suffers loss,” but what was lost here is the man’s work, which were burned up, not his “reward.”
To find out, let’s compare the Catholic and the Protestant positions. Throughout the comparison, remember that, for Protestants, the “reward” spoken of refers to crowns, whereas for Catholics, the “reward” spoken of refers to eternal life.
Protestant: “If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive crowns. If any man's work is burned up, he will NOT receive crowns; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
The Protestant view looks like a nice fit—it makes sense, until you come to that part where it says “but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” Why did I say that it doesn’t make sense? Because, according to Protestants, the man in v.15 is ALREADY saved, so what’s the fire for? In v.15 it’s plain that it’s the fire that saves, so what’s the fire has to save the v.15 man from inasmuch as the mv.15 man is already saved?
My opponent will probably say next “But that’s not what v.15 says at all about fire saving the already saved v.15 man. The fire is there to test the acceptability of the works of the v.15 man, not to purge him any further.
My opponent could probably get away with that, except that the Greek grammar clearly supports the Catholic position. The phrase “yet so as by fire,” is actually an adverbial clause formed by the Greek adverb ““houtos” which modifies the verb “saved” and which tells us how the v.15 man is saved, that is, by passing through the fire.
Now let’s now go to the Catholic view: ““If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive eternal salvation. If any man's work is burned up, he loses his “works”; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
Now let’s see if the Catholic position has a good fit.
First of all we have to understand that in 1Cor 3:10-15, St. Paul is reminding the Corinthian Christians how they are living stones God uses to build his Church (1Peter 2:5), with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone (Mt 21:42; cf Acts 4:11; 1Pet 2:7; Ps 117:22), using the Apostles to build upon Christ’s foundation (cf 1 Cor 3:10).
Comparing the task at hand to the construction of a building wherein one member builds upon the stone a previous member has put in, St Paul urges the Corinthian Corinthians to build responsibly, using the metaphor of gold, silver, and precious stone to mean uprightness and strict adherence to the teachings of Jesus Christ which St. Paul, in turn, had passed on to them, and urging them not to build using inferior materials of wood, hay, or stubble, meaning not to let their guard down and allow the devil to lead them astray.
In verse 10 to 15, St. Paul particularly reminds the Corinthians that a day of judgment will come (v.13). One thing about this day of reckoning is clear: everyone will be paid according to his works. If good materials were used, i.e., if one has been upright and held on top the correct teaching, he will be rewarded with eternal life. But if he used defective materials, if head not been upright and did not adhere to the correct teachings, he will not have the same reward. He’d still be saved, but only as “through fire”: he will have to undergo the purging fires of Purgatory first.
A clearly seamless and natural interpretation is given by this Catholic position. Notice that there no loose ends in this Catholic interpretation, unlike the Protestant interpretation, for instance, where they have to explain what’s the fire for were the v.15 man already in heaven?
Besides, St. Augustine has an interesting take on what this fire is. He believes the purpose of the fire is to severe any attachment the soul has to anything which do not endure, one requirement for acceptance to heaven being the absence of anything in the soul that makes it prefer anything else to Christ.
Here, again is 1 Cor 3:10-15.
[10] According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
[11] For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
[13] each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
[14] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
My opponent’s Question # 2. In your rebuttal you asserted that we have to suffer temporal punning and said, God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments, did not the "temporal punishment" of David by losing his child occurred while he was still alive on Earth and not on the supposedly existing Purgatory?
My answer: Correct, David started paying the temporal punishment due his sin in regard to Bathsheba and Uriah while still alive, but this is because temporal punishment can be paid either in this world or in Purgatory. Here’s Trent (The Sixth session):
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
My opponent's Question # 3: In your rebuttal you said, BUT, we can reject his offered love, and THIS is what will separate us from him. I would like to ask you for your understanding of Romans 9:16 where in it says: It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Isn't it in fact that salvation is only dependent on God's mercy and not our own will?
My reply: First, let me say that Rom 9:16 speaks, specifically, about one specific type of people: the Jews, God’s chosen, and in the verse you’ve chosen, God is speaking very specifically to the Jews, which excludes you and I, unless you’re Jew, which I don’t think you are.
In other words, what I’m saying is this: that Rom 9:16 merely illustrates God’s love of predilection, for playing favorites. For instance, if God says “I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau,” who are we to question that? If God plays favorites and chooses Jews, not Filipinos, who are we to question that?
My opponent is reading into Rom 9:16 what the verse is NOT saying, that God will save us whether we like it or not. No.
Second, my opponent simply couldn't ignore the half a dozen passages which plainly show God respecting our freedom to choose him or reject him, meaning that, instead of plucking a passage off the Bible, and saying “Here’s a passage which debunks your claim,” my opponent should, instead, accept the passages I’ve quoted as true, and proceed to show how both your passages and I mine are true, because, really now, no passages in the bible contradict each other.
Dt 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live”
Mt 23:37 “"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!”
Others: Acts 7:51 ; 1 Cor 15:10 Cf 2 Cor 6:1
My opponent's Question # 4: In the story of the rich man and Lazarus you said, The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) indicates that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in Abraham’s bosom while the rich man was in a place of torment. Granting without conceding that this analysis is correct, where do you put Purgatory here?
My reply:
Neither. Purgatory couldn't possibly exist then during Lazarus' time for the simple reason that heaven was closed then to humans. Purgatory being a purging station before heaven, there could be no Purgatory with heaven closed.
Your question surprises me because, I mean,isn't THAT plain?
Definitely what’s Purgatory now could not be the place where the rich man was. Bible tells us that the rich man’s situation was hopeless, he was beyond praying for, meaning this place could not Purgatory, but hell(Luke 16:19-31).
Remember this arrangement about the Bosom of Abraham was in force only until that day that Jesus went to the Bosom of Abraham to fetch all the righteous who have died prior to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.
Meaning, after that day, there was no longer a Bosom of Abraham, ruling out also the Bosom of Abraham as the purging station we now call Purgatory.
My opponent’s Question # 5: Did Moses ever prescribe in his laws praying for those who are dead?
My reply:
No, Moses did not, and the reason he did not is probably because there’s no need to—Jews have always prayed for their dead.
Look, what are the Ten Commandments EXCEPT an infallible guide to heaven? Call it a reminder if you will, placed there to remind men NOT to do what their natural inclinations tend to make them do.
And what are these?
Their tendency to have idols, to worship gods other than the one true God. I mean, look at the Jews: Moses was gone only for a few days, and they already made for themselves a golden calf god!
Their tendency to kill. Their tendency to steal, not only goods but also other people's wives. Their tendency to tell lies.
THAT is why there was a need for the Ten Commandments to remind them of all these.
But, pray for the dead? No. the Jews were ALREADY doing that:
1) Peter prayed for Tabitha, who had died. (Acts 9:40)
2) St. Paul prayed for Eutychus, who fell down from a building and died (Acts 20:10)
3) St. Paul prayed for the departed Onesiphorus ( 2 Timothy 1: 16- 18)
What's the need, then, to remind them of it? The Jews were ALREADY doing that, as numerous passages in the Bible plainly show, beginning with Moses own death. In Deut 34:7-8, for instance, we have:
[7] Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
[8] And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
Whenever a Jew dies, the Jews have this prayer for the dead called “Kaddish” which Jewish Law specifies must be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the “Yahrtzeit”), and by custom in the State of Israel by all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet (“Yom HaKaddish HaKlali’).
There is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer, but there’s a good explanation for this.
First, know that the Jews believe in the afterlife. They also believe that prayers Where do we learn that prayers can help someone in the afterlife, hence the Mourners Kaddish.
The source of Kaddish is found in a story.
http://www.jewishmag.com/12mag/kadish/kadish.htm
Rabbi Akiva was walking through a forest. He saw a man, darkened with coal dust, carrying a heavy load of fire wood on his shoulders and running at a very rapid pace. Rabbi Akiva commanded the man to stop and the man stood for Rabbi Akiva.
"Why are you running with such a heavy load? If you are a slave, I shall free you! If you are poor and must exert yourself to such an inhuman extent, let me give you money and make you wealthy!"
"Please," the man entreated Rabbi Akiva, "Let me continue my work!"
"Are you human or are you from the demons?"
"I am neither a poor man nor a slave. I am a soul that is being punished by collecting huge amounts of fire wood for a giant fire into which I am to be cast."
"Tell me, what was your occupation when you lived in this world?"
The man answered, "I was a tax collector. I took bribes from the rich, and I had the poor executed. Not only that, I had illicit relations with a engaged girl on the holiest day of the year, on Yom Kippur."
Rabbi Akiva inquired, "My son, have you not heard that something from the other worlds that could be done to help you and alleviate your suffering?"
"Please," he cried, "Allow me to resume my work. My task masters will be angry with me and punish me further. They say that I have no way of being redeemed. Had I had a son who would stand up in public and cause others to praise God, then they could release me from this punishment. But I left a wife who was pregnant, who knows if she had a son or daughter? And if he were a boy, who would teach him Torah?"
"What is your name?"
"My name is Akiva, my wife's name is Shosmira, and I was from the town of Elduka."
Rabbi Akiva felt extremely bad because of this soul and he searched from town to town until him came to that very town. He asked in the town, "Where is this man's house?"
The villagers answered in hatred, "May his bones be ground to dust in Hell!"
"Where is this man's wife?"
The villagers answered with bitterness, "May her name and memory be blotted out from this world!"
“Where is this man's child?"
"He is uncircumcised, and no one will circumcise him!"
Rabbi Akiva grabbed the man's son and began to teach him Torah. Rabbi Akiva fasted for forty days and then heard a voice from heaven. "Rabbi Akiva, do you fast for this boy?"
Answered Rabbi Akiva, "Yes!"
Teach him to read and write. Teach him to recite grace after meals, teach him to say 'Shema' and to pray." When the boy shall pray in public, causing the people to praise God's name, then the punishment shall be lifted from this man."
When this happened, the soul of the man came to Rabbi Akiva in a dream.. "You have spared my soul from the punishments of Hell."
(This story is from one of the many legends found in the Talmud. In the Zohar Chadash, it is mentioned that the prayer is the Kadish.)
What is the power that is demonstrated here? What can cause an evil man to be redeemed from a fitting punishment?
The answer is simple. The redemption is not in the mere recital of Kadish, but in causing others to praise God. Children who live lives of doing good, bring credit their parents.
Judgment is not only on the deeds that are done, judgment is also on the actions that are caused. If a man leaves a son who increases the respect that mankind have for God, then it is a credit for the father, even if the father is evil. This is the secret of the Kadish, that the causing of others to acknowledge the greatness of God in public can serve to counter balance the evil that was perpetrated by the father.
Negative's Five Questions
Here are my five questions that I would like to ask my opponent:
1. You cited 1st Corinthians 3:12 to 15 to prove Purgatory, I would like to know what is the "reward" being spoke of here and why the other person whose works were burned does not get it despite of, as you claimed, the "fire" here "purges" that person.
2. In your rebuttal you asserted that we have to suffer temporal punning and said, God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments, did not the "temporal punishment" of David by losing his child occurred while he was still alive on Earth and not on the supposedly existing Purgatory?
3. In your rebuttal you said, BUT, we can reject his offered love, and THIS is what will separate us from him. I would like to ask you for your understanding of Romans 9:16 where in it says: It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Isn't it in fact that salvation is only dependent on God's mercy and not our own will?
4. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus you said, The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) indicates that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in Abraham’s bosom while the rich man was in a place of torment. Granting without conceding that this analysis is correct, where do you put Purgatory here?
5. Did Moses ever prescribe in his laws praying for those who are dead?
Final
Five Cross-Exam Questions
Reading through my opponent’s Rebuttal gives me a feeling of anti-climax.
Of the 1,144 words in his rebuttal, 532 are mine, meaning that my opponent used up a total of 612 of the 4,000 word allotted him. Then also, his rebuttal has 12 Bible citations, of which all of 11 are mine, meaning he cited only one bible passage to support his claim.
I’d like to remind my opponent that this debate has only one legal tender, the Bible, and that my opponent is assuming too much if he thinks he can simply make claims on the sheer strength of his say-so.
That said, let me go direct to my cross –exam questions.
Question # 1: What is your basis, aside from your say-so, for claiming that “the Jews whom Judas Maccabeus is praying for is [sic] guilty of idolatry?
Clarificatory points to explain the question:
In the first place, didn’t these men “fall asleep in godliness” for whom “splendid rewards” await (v.45)? Does that sound like what await idolators? The author of 2 Maccabees tells us that for these men Judah "was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness" (v. 45); he believed that these men fell asleep in godliness, which would not have been the case if they were in mortal sin.
In the second place, what was Judah doing "turn[ing] to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" (2 Macc. 12:42)? Were they idolators and were destined for hell, what good would Judah’s prayers for the “blotting out of their sin” DO?
In the third place, what was Judah doing, were the deceased damned in hell, “[taking] up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, THAT THEY MIGHT BE DELIVERED FROM THEIR SIN” (vv. 43, 45).
Question # 2: About 1 Cor 3:10-15 you made the claim below:
///There is no purging going on but testing. The works of a man is being tested by fire and not the man himself. If the work withstands the fire, the man gets a reward. But if it does not, the work is burned but the man is still saved. We don't see any cleansing of the man. We also don't see any refining towards the man. Whether your works remain or burn, you're still saved.///
Were it true that the passage says nothing about the purification of individuals, and that all it means is that works are tested, why does NOT Scripture make this distinction?
Clarificatory points to explain the question.
On the contrary, why does Scripture characterize people in terms of some serious sin, as if it sums up their entire character? (E.g., Rev 22:15: “Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.”
Or 1 Cor 6:9-10: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Why does Scripture call some people “evil” as contrasted to “good” throughout Proverbs and Psalms, as well as Mt 12:35; Lk 6:43-45; Phil 3:2; 2 Tim 3:13; Heb 3:12, 10:22; Rev 22:11?
Were you right in saying about works being extraneous to man, and that it is work, not the man, which is purified, how do you account for the following Bible passages which clearly say otherwise:
Malachi 3:2-3: But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, . . .
Other Bible passages: Isaiah 4:3-4; Isaiah 1:25; Isaiah 48:10; Psalm 51:7; Daniel 11:35; Jeremiah 9:7; Zechariah 13:9; Ecclesiastes 12:14.
To Scripture, it looks like sin runs way deeper than good or bad motives, and dirties the whole gamut of human behavior, indicating that to purify a person is to remove his sins and imperfections, otherwise, why would St Paul say in 2 Corinthians 7:1: ". . . let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. "
Question # 3: Were it true what you said about the canonicity of 2 Maccabees being in question because:
///Also, the inspiration of the books of Maccabees is doubtful in this verse: The writer does not know if his book is well written or poorly done. He also recommends drinking water mixed with wine to aid in writing. This has no inspiration of the Holy Spirit///
do we, then, throw out of the window all of St. Paul’s letters for the same reason?
Clarificatory points to explain the question:
St. Paul forgot whom he baptized in 1 Cor 1;15.
In 1 Corinthians 7:40 St. Paul wasn't sure that his teaching was inspired or not.
In 1 Cor 7:10 St. Paul makes it clear that certain teachings he's passing along are "not I, but the Lord" speaking (1 Cor. 7:10), whereas in other cases, "I, not the Lord" am speaking (cf. 1 Cor. 7:12). If there’s anything that ahould tell us a Bible passage is NOT inspired, this is it, yet why is it that nobody argues that St. Paul's writings should be excluded from Scripture?
Question # 4: Were it true what you’re saying about Jesus simply saying in Mt 12:32 that there is no forgiveness when you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, what, then, might the “age to come” Jesus is saying here?
Clarificatory point to explain the question:
Mt. 12:32 has Jesus clearly saying that speaking against the Holy will not be forgiven, not in this age or the age to come. Were you correct in saying that all Jesus meant here was that speaking against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven, why didn’t he simply say “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Period”? If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there ARE others which CAN be.
Question # 5: What is your basis, aside from your say-so, that the thief on the cross went directly to heaven without passing by Purgatory first?
Clarificatory points to explain the question:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-on-cross-are-sacraments.html
Paradise in this verse (Lk 23:43) about the thief on the cross (if interpreted literally) is not even referring to heaven, and indeed could not, since Jesus was not yet in heaven on that day ("today . . ."). He was crucified on Friday and didn't rise from the dead until Sunday. In fact, He didn't ascend to heaven until forty days after that (Acts 1:3,9-11; cf. Jn 20:17)!
Between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, He descended into Sheol, or Hades, the place of the dead (both righteous and unrighteous- see Luke 16:19-31) to preach to the captives (righteous dead).
We know this from passages such as 1 Pet 3:19-20, 4:6, and Eph 4:8-10 (cf. Rom 10:7, Acts 2:27). So, then, Paradise in Lk 23:43 is referring to Sheol, not heaven.
The conclusion is inescapable from cross-scriptural exegesis. E.g., Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (an impeccable and standard Protestant linguistic source) holds to this view, which is not just Catholic belief, but that of conservative Protestants as well (see also the reputable Protestant reference New Bible Dictionary, ed. J.D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1962 ed., p.935).
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/05/luke-2343-thief-on-cross-passage.html
This seems to ignore the point that “paradise” was, for the Jews, not the Christian
heaven, but the Jewish sheol, the Realm of the Dead.
According to rabbinic tradition, this realm had a number of “levels,” and according to the various scholarly theories, the lowest were equivalent to the Christian Hell, while the intermediate ones were more like the Christian Purgatory, and the highest ones (especially the topmost, which was named Paradise), had the Saints awaiting the opening of the Christian Heaven.
This last is what Christians refer to as the Limbo of the Fathers. “Paradise” was named after the Garden of Eden, which in Greek and Latin was styled a “paradisio” — as I write this I’m looking at the New Vulgate rendering “paradisum” — which I have read comes from the Persian word “perdes,” a walled-in cultured land, and Adam was from the outset placed “in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it”; in other words, it was man’s charge to cultivate and maintain the “paradise” — symbolically, his innocence — that he was given as his original habitat (Genesis 2:8–17).
Now Christ did not go immediately to Heaven, but instead stopped in at the Limbo of the Fathers to announce that the time had arrived for the opening of Heaven (cf. 1 Peter 3:18–20). Then he returned to earth for the forty days prior to the Ascension (which we celebrated last Thursday or today, depending our diocese).
It was, then, only on Ascension Day that Christ officially proceeded to enter Heaven, although eternally speaking he had never left there. With this understanding, I think it more correct to say that the Good Thief was being told, in the words, “Today you shall be with me in Paradise,” that he would enter that part of the Realm of the Dead that would eventually be saved.
Exactly where in the rabbinic scheme of things his lot fell is open to discussion, but it follows that “Paradise” would place him fairly high and certainly among the saved. There is no reason to believe, then, that the Good Thief escaped Purgatory, but only that through his acts of faith and repentance, as evidenced by his request to Jesus, he was brought to salvation.
Certainly his past life, which from the gospel passages we gather included long-term activity as a robber and murderer, would require considerable cleansing (atonement). Whether his death by crucifixion atoned for all the atonement necessary is not for me to judge; only that to judge by the words and the tradition, it is not necessary to believe that complete atonement was made in that punishment.
Debate on Purgatory - Negative Rebuttal
Unfortunately, the opening statement of my opponent has quite gone astray. I don't know if my opponent is arguing about Purgatory or against the doctrine of eternal security.
///Let’s start with the basic premise, Rev 21:27. Not everyone gets to see heaven while alive, but St. John did, and in describing his vision of heaven, John tells us one thing: "nothing unclean shall enter it (Rev. 21:27).”
By “nothing unclean” is meant that ONLY one who’s righteous may enter heaven. And, by “righteous” is meant one has been made righteous (Lv 19:2; 1 Pet 1:15-16), not merely counted righteous as Protestants believe. ///
There is no problem there. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven. Those who die as unbelievers will go to hell. But if you die as a believer, you're Heaven bound. No problem there.
///The implication is that if you end up giving in to sin, your name will be blotted out of the book of life and you will be denied before God and the angels, something Jesus elsewhere emphasizes (Matt. 10:33, Luke 12:9).///
What does this has to do with Purgatory? Okay, granting for a moment that I am an Arminian I have no problem that can salvation be lost. If I die separated from Christ, I go to hell. So what's the relevance of this to Purgatory? Nothing.
If you read the remainder of my opponent's opening, you won't be able to decide if the person who dies will go hell or Purgatory. Anyway, we begin with our rebuttal of his interpretation of Bible verses that claims to support Purgatory.
///Moreover, Jesus implies that our sins can be forgiven in the next world:
Mt 12:32 : “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."///
Unfortunately many Roman Catholics misinterpret this verse. Jesus is simply saying that there is no forgiveness when you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, ever. They often equate the "age to come" as another realm or lifetime. But if you read the parallel in Mark 3:29 it says but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin. It has nothing to do with Purgatory.
///And Scripture describes a Jewish practice of praying for the dead:
2 Mc 12:42-46 : “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”///
First of all, Moses never instituted a practice of praying for the dead. If this was an important practice, we would definitely see it in his books. Second, Protestants don't agree with the canonicity of the book of Maccabees. Then again, we won't take that easy way out. The book of Maccabees will not help my opponent. Why is that? Read 2nd Maccabees 12:40:
///But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.///
The Jews whom Judas Maccabeus is praying for is guilty of idolatry. Even for Roman Catholics, idolatry is a mortal sin which spells Hell for those who died guilty of it. So we have a confusing application of praying for the dead here.
Also, the inspiration of the books of Maccabees is doubtful in this verse:
If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do. Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work. Let this, then, be the end.
The writer does not know if his book is well written or poorly done. He also recommends drinking water mixed with wine to aid in writing. This has no inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Lastly, my opponent quotes their most favorite verse to prove Purgatory which is 1st Corinthians 3:10-15. My opponent commented:
///Moreover, the fire that St Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 3:10-15 PURGES. The passage clearly speaks about purifying a person by removing his sins and imperfections.
Purgation of this type is precisely a negative work of getting rid of contamination, just as in metal-working. If the impurities are gotten rid of the final product is more pure.
The passage teaches purgatory. It refers to a "fire" that is refining and "revealing", that will be a "test" for every man's "work" (that's temporal punishment of suffering indeed), a situation where a man will "suffer loss" and yet still be saved. How much clearer does it have to be? Now, of course we won't find a fully-developed medieval conception of purgatory, but it is foolish to expect that anyway, just as it would be to expect to find full Chalcedonian Christology and trinitarianism in all its glorious nuanced complexity. That is true of all doctrines, so why should purgatory be an exception?///
If you were to read the passage again, there is no purging going on but testing. The works of a man is being tested by fire and not the man himself. If the work withstands the fire, the man gets a reward. But if it does not, the work is burned but the man is still saved. We don't see any cleansing of the man. We also don't see any refining towards the man. Whether your works remain or burn, you're still saved.
The footnote of the New American Bible tells this about the verse:
///The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.///
Overall, my opponent has provided no biblical evidence to prove the existence of Purgatory.
Final
Affirmative Rebuttal of Negative Opening Statement
Let me go straight into the meat of my opponent’s opening statement.
My opponent has chosen to establish the non-existence of Purgatory by claiming that there can be no Purgatory because of the following reasons:
[1] Christ has sufficiently paid for our sins. Rom 8:28- 39
[2] Nothing but nothing can separate us from the love of God. Purgatory separates us from God so it’s false. Rom 8:28-39.
[3] The believer in Christ has been purified. Rom 8:28-39 What’s there for Purgatory to purify when the believer’s already purified? Christ has already provided our purification. Hebrews 10:19-22. We already have been washed, sanctified, justified. No need for purgatory. 1st Corinthians 6:9-11.
[4] For sins we continue to make after justification, all we do is confess, and we are forgiven 1 John 1:9
[5] Other points
Let me address each.
[1] Christ has sufficiently paid for our sins. Rom 8:28-39
Correct. 1 John 2:1-2 couldn’t be clearer: Jesus Christ is “the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
The only problem is, my opponent is referring to the wrong Redemption.
God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This does NOT mean, however, that all one has to do is to say “Yes, Lord, I accept you into my life, you are my Lord and Savior” and that’s it, one’s saved, and there’s NOTHING, but nothing that could take that salvation away. No.
1 John 2:2 is clear: Christ expiated not only for the sins of those who believe in him, but for ALL mankind: Muslims, atheists, Wiccans, Masons, abortionists, murderers, practicing homosexuals, everyone.
Were it true what my opponent is saying, does that mean that those who have NOT known Christ would be doomed?
Of course, not, and this is where Protestants got it wrong: they‘ve confused objective Redemption with subjective Redemption. They think Christ died on the Cross, voila, their salvation has been assured for all time. No, that's not it at all.
The fact is, there are two distinct dimensions of Jesus Christ’s Redemption.
First, Jesus Christ, in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension died for ALL mankind for all times (1 John 2:2; 2 Cor 5:15; 1 Tim 2:6;) WITHOUT EXCEPTION. This is what’s called the objective Redemption, that ALL may be freed:
from the tyranny of sin (Tit 2:14; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12 ff),
from the slavery of the Mosaic law (Gal 3:13;Rom 7:11 ),
from the slavery of the Devil (Col 1:13; cf Col2:15; Heb 2:14),
and from the slavery of death (2 Tim 1:10; cf Heb 2:14ff)
and its attendant evils (servitude to the devil and death).(cf Rom 3:24; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:15.
Yet the benefits of that redemption have to be applied unceasingly to Christ’s members throughout their lives. This is the subjective Redemption. Why, even Protestants believe so, otherwise why does a Protestant have to accept Christ as Lord and Savior were he, the moment he’s born, already saved, having been born after Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross?
If the benefits of Christ’s Redemption are not applied to individuals, they have no share in his objective Redemption. In other words, dinner has been served, but to enjoy the feast, one has to take his place at the table.
And why doesn’t Christ’s redemption stop at the objective redemption?
Because Subjective Redemption or Justification (also called Sanctification)is NOT the work of God alone: man's cooperation is required.
Because God has endowed human nature with reason and free will, Subjective Redemption or Justification requires the free cooperation of men. God wills that each man freely cooperate with him in his plan of salvation for man, because God wills that everyone who gets to heaven get there on their own free will, and not because God forced them to.
Heb 5:9 “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him”
2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall”
Rom 8:34 “who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?
"
Heb 7:25 "Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."
Heb 9:24 "For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."
This act of the application of the fruits of the Redemption to the individual man is called Subjective Redemption, Justification or Sanctification.
Yes, my opponent is correct that Christ's Redemption is sufficient, but my opponent is wrong in believing what he has is already Subjective Redemption or Justiication.
[2] Nothing but nothing can separate us from the love of God. Purgatory separates us from God so it’s false. Rom 8:28 to 39.
Really?
Revelation 3:16 “So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”
Oops, doesn’t sound like what my opponent is saying.
1 Cor. 5:5 St. Paul commands the Church todeliver a man to Satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
Oops. Again, this doesn’t sound like what my opponent is saying. St. Paul has just demonstrated something could- he excommunicated the man.
1 Cor. 3:15 – Here, St Paul says those of us who build upon the Church with inferior materials will still be saved, but only as through fire. In heaven there’s no fire, so the fire is something extraneous, suggesting a separation.
Others: John 6:70 to 71 ; John 15:6 ; John 15:1-10; Rom. 11:20-23. Rev 3:5
I can go on and on but I think I’ve made the point. It’s true nothing but nothing can separate us from the love of God, in the sense that God will never stop loving us, and he's waiting for us to love him back.( Rev 3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”)
BUT, we can reject his offered love, and THIS is what will separate us from him.
In fact, the numerous admonishments to penance and good works in Scripture presuppose that grace does not steamroller our freedom, such that we have absolutely no choice but to accept God’s proffered love. No, that’s not so: grace does not abrogate the freedom of the will, as the following passages clearly show:
Dt 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live”
Mt 23:37 “"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!”
Others: Acts 7:51 ; 1 Cor 15:10 Cf 2 Cor 6:1
Indeed, St. Augustine, who’s also admired by Protestants, said: “He who created thee without thy help, does not justify thee without thy help” Sermo 169,11,13.
My opponent, therefore, seems to have missed this important missing link in his argument. It is true that nothing can separate us from God’s love, in the sense that God will never stop loving us, but, at the same time, it I also true that God will not force his love on us. We can reject his offered love. THIS is what separates us from him.
[3] The believer in Christ has been purified. Rom 8:28-39 How could Purgatory purify when the believer is already purified. Christ, by his sacrifice on the Cross, has already provided our purification. Hebrews 10:19-22. We already have been washed, sanctified, justified. No need for purgatory. 1 Cor 6:9-11.
Correct. After their profession of faith and baptism, the faithful are washed, sanctified, justified, purified. My opponent has a litle problem, however: Justification mAY be lost.
Protestants understand Justification as a mere covering over of sin. The sin remains, the sinner remaining as corrupt as ever, but, at the moment the sinner declares his acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Christ’s righteousness is imputed on the sinner he is declared righteous, he is saved. At that very moment.
This is the reason why my opponent speaks of salvation in the past tense, something began in the past, and completed in the past. Indeed, given such an arrangement, what need is there for Purgatory?
There's only one problem: Justification MAY be lost.
Scripture is clear that Jusificaton may be lost. The fallen angels are an example, and so are Adam and Eve, Judas, even St.Peter.
Take David:
1 Sam 13:14 David is justified here as we find God calling David as “a man after his own heart.” Acts 13:22 confirms that David was justified here.
1 Sam 16:13 Again, David is justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from Goliath.
2 Sam 6:9, 14 Yet again, David is justified here. David expresses a fear for the Lord in His ark, dancing before the ark of the Lord with all his might.
2 Sam 12:7-15 David does something really bad, and loses his justification. Protestants dismiss this as David’s losing only his fellowship with God, but not his salvation. Now that’s crazy, as if there’s nothing horrible with losing God’s friendship, as if losing God’s friendship is not the same as losing one's salvation.
Ps 32:1-2; Rom 4:7-8; cf 51:2, 7-10, 17 David repents , restoring for himself God’s friendship.
Yet another example in Scripture of one losing his Justification is the Corinth man who had sexual relations with his mother-in-law. (The man was a saint; otherwise, how could St. Paul cut him off the saints' fellowship?)
My opponent, therefore, has a problem: his view of Justification is anchored on his assumption that Justification may not be lost. What now, inasmuch as Scripture is clear that it MAY be lost? Readers may also check Ez 18:24; Ez 33:12; Mt 26:41; 1 Cor 10:12; 1 Cor 6:9 ff for further proof that Justification may be lost.
The reason for my opponent's dilemma is his belief that Justification or, what's the same thing, Sanctification is a mere covering over of sin.
Big mistake. Scripture is full of passages that clearly point to a real and complete removal of sin rather just a mere forensic or declared removal of it:
[a] delere to wash away, to eradicate (Ps50:3; Is 43:25; Is 44:22; Acts 3:19).
[b] aufere or transferre, to take away, to remove (2 Sam 12:13; Chr 21:8; Mich 7:18);
[c] tollere, to take away, to remove (Jn 1:29);
[d] longe facere, to remove (Ps 102:12;
[e] lavare, abluere, to wash away, mundare, to purity Ps 50:4; Is 1:16; Ez 36:25; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 6:11; Heb 1:3; 1 John 1:7)
[f] remittere or dimittee, to send away, to remit (Ps 31:1; Ps 84:3; Mt 9:2,6; Lk 7:47 ff; Jn 20:23; Mt 26:28; Eph 1:7).
To be sure, a handful of passages speak of a covering or a non-imputation of sins (Ps 31:1 ff; Ps 84:3; 2 Cor 5:19), but these must be understood in the light of the parallel expressions "remittere" in Ps 31:1Ps 84:3 and of the other clear Scriptural teaching of a real eradication of sins. In the passages Prv 10:12 “Charity covereth all sin” and 1 Peter 4:8 “Charity covereth a multitude of sin” there is no question of forgiveness of sins by God, but of mutual forgiveness of men.
Inasmuch as Justification is NOT merely a covering over of sin, but a real and complete blotting out of sin, it's a process covering a lifetime.
Proof? 1 Cor 6:11 which speaks of Justification in the past tense: "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."
But then there's Hebrews which speaks of Justification in the present tense: "For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).
In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham's justification is advanced on three separate occasions.
Gen 12:1-4 Abram is justified here by his faith in God (Heb 11:8-10 confirmS that Abram was justified here.
Gen 14:19, 22-23 Abraham also justified here by being blessed by Melchizedek.
Gen 15:6 Abram is again justified here, as God promised h8im that his descendants will number as the stars. Protestants usually cite this as Abraham’s initial justification, citing Rom 4:2 to prove that Abram was justified by his faith. True, but Abram was justified 25 years earlier, in Gen 12:1-4, or that and Heb 11:8-10 lie.
Gen 22:1-18 Abraham is again justified here, this time by works, obeying God’s order for him to sacrifice Isaac. That Abraham was justified here is confirmed by James 2:21-23.
Let me ask these questions to my opponent:
(a) Doesn't the final step into heaven require us to be perfectly purified and made completely holy through Christ’s grace?
(b) Isn't this so inasmuch as heaven, where "nothing unclean can enter" contains holy and perfected people (cf. Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 12:14, 23; 1 Thess 5:23; Eph 5:26f; Rev 21:27)?
(c) So don't we "need to be purified" according to Scripture (cf. Mal 3:2-3; 1 Peter 1:6-9; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Hebrews 12:29)?
If you agree with each of the above questions-- and I don't see how you could disagree, given the barrage of Bible passages looking at you-- how could you persist in your unbelief of purgatory?
[4] For sins we continue to make after Justification, all we do is confess, and we are forgiven 1 John 1:9
Correct. And, in addition to 1 Jn 1:9, I could also mention James 5:16 and Acts 19:18
My opponent, however, has a little problem here: all temporal punishments for sin are NOT always remitted by God with the guilt of sin and the eternal punishment. The sinner must suffer punishment even after the forgiveness of the guilt.
Proof? Gen 3:16ff; Numbers 12:14 ff; Numbers 14:19 ff; Number 20:11 ff; 2 Sam 12:13 ff;
When we sin, we bring upon ourselves the guilt due the sin. Scripture describes it as guilt clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool" (Is. 1:18).
This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (cf. Ps. 51:4, 9).
But not only that, we also run up the punishment due the sin "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless" (Is. 13:11).
Judgment shall even be meted to the smallest sins: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil" (Eccl. 12:14).
When the sinner repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9) which may come with the sin, BUT temporal penalties may remain.
Scripture shows that the sinner must suffer punishment even after the forgiveness of the guilt of his sin: Gen 3:16 ff in the case of our first parents ; Numbers 12:14 in the case of Miriam; Numbers 14:19; Numbers 20:11;
In 2 Sam 12:13 ff we find Nathan the prophet confronting David over his adultery: "Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14).
God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).
[5] At this point, I’d like to address my opponent’s remaining points:
[1] /// The thief on the Cross: Christ didn't say, "You will be in purgatory first and then you will be with me in paradise." ///
The Church does NOT teach that everyone who goes to heaven HAS to pass by Purgatory first.
On the other hand, if by this question you mean "Look, all the thief had WAS faith," then my answer would be "Repentance is not faith. It is an act of faith. The man on the cross showed his faith by trusting on Jesus to remember him. He also stood for Jesus. That is not faith alone. That is faith along with an act of faith. That could be faith working through love (Gal 5:6)."
Besides, if all it takes is faith ALONE, why are the dead in Rev 20:13 judged according to their deeds?
[2]. ///Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. (Hebrews 9:27). When a person dies, he is judged by God. No more room for Purgatory here.///
Heb 9:27 does NOT say that. My opponent has to place on the table Bible proof for his claim other than Heb 9:27, because I can for mine: 1 Cor 3:10 to 15.
[3] ///And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. Luke 16:26. After their death Lazarus was with Abraham while the rich man was suffering in hell. Christ here teaches that there are only two destinations of man's soul when they die. Christ didn't give room for a state of Purgatory///
It’s apparent that my opponent has not done his homework well.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/limbo
Prior to Christ’s Resurrection, all who died went to “hell”; however, the just went to a place in hell referred to as “Abraham’s bosom,” where they would be comforted until the gates of heaven were opened. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) indicates that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in Abraham’s bosom while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts. Christ opened the gates of heaven for those in Abraham’s bosom when he descended into hell after his death.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 633
[4] ///Finally, I would like to say that neither the prophets nor the apostles who died ever taught a state of purification after death.///
Really?
Micah 7:8-9 Rejoice not over me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall rise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (see also Leviticus 26:41,43, Job 40:4-5, Lamentations 3:39)
Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
SUMMARY
The purpose of the Rebuttal is to give each side the chance to take potshots at the opposing side’s arguments in support of his position. Towards that end, I think I have successfully done that, lobbing broadsides at my opponent’s arguments, in each case by way of abundant Bible proof.
Against Negative’s contention that Purgatory is non-existent because the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross has made Purgatory unnecessary, I have convincingly shown that, yes, Christ’s work of Redemption is sufficient, but he has got his Redempion wrong.
Against Negative’s claim that Purgatory is non-existent because it separates us from the love of God, and nothing but nothing can do that, I have shown abundant Scriptural proof that, in fact, some things DO separate us from God.
Against Negative’s claim that Justification is an event, I have shown that, on the contrary, Justification is a process.
I fully agree with Negative’s “For sins we continue to make after justification, all we do is confess, and we are forgiven 1 John 1:9,” but I pointed out to my opponent that temporal punishment of sin remains even after the guilt has been forgiven.
With regard to Negative’s remaining issues:
(1) Thief on the Cross- I pointed out that it’s possible for one to skip Purgatory.
(2) No Purgatory in Heb 9:27- I challenged him to place on the table his Bible proof because he merely stated a claim without bothering to support it with Bible proof while I have.
(3) Lazarus and Dives- I pointed out to my opponent his erroneous interpretation of “Sheol” being the Hell of the Damned- it is not.
(4) Neither the prophets nor the apostles who died ever taught a state of purification after death.- Again, my opponent offered no Bible proof, and instead, merely stated his claim.
Debate on Purgatory - Negative Opening
The Catechism of the Catholic Church has these details on Purgatory:
1030 - All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 - The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
We find an entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia on Purgatory:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life.
From these Catholic sources, it is very clear that when a believer dies he or she does not automatically go to Heaven to be with God. But due to some smaller unrepented sins, the believer goes to a final purification before entering Heaven.
As a Protestant who upholds the truth of Scripture, it is my task to prove that Jesus Christ has sufficiently paid for our sins and that the believer in Christ has been purified so that he or she will be worthy to enter Heaven upon his or her physical death. The believer will no longer go another state of purification when he dies because Christ has done it with his sacrifice and death.
The apostle Paul writes:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:28-39
Paul here is talking to believers who are obviously still alive on Earth. He isn't talking to those who have already died. I would like everyone to take notice of the words justified and glorified in verse 30. It is the Lord who does these actions, and when the Lord does these things you can be sure that they will come to pass. That's why in verses 31-35 Paul was confident that nothing will separate the believers from the love of Christ. Paul further asserts in verses 36 to 39 that the believers are more than conquerors and nothing would ever separate them from the love of God.
Imagine now for a moment that there is a purgatory. Paul said that nothing can separate us from the love of God because God himself is the one who justifies and glorifies during the lifetime of the believers. Paul even asserted the Christ intercedes for all believers. And yet the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory would temporarily separate us from God.
The blood of Christ already provides purification during the believer's life on Earth:
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:19-22
The author of Hebrews mentioned here the word confidence. It means the author is encouraging us not to doubt as we approach God. Why is that? Because Christ already provided our purification.
Paul again gives us an assurance:
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1st Corinthians 6:9-11
Again, Paul here is talking to believers who are still alive. He stated consistently that the believers already washed, sanctified, and justified. Does this leave room for Purgatory? No!
Some of you now are asking, "But Christians still commit sin! Therefore we cannot be sure that were completely clean when we die." Folks, God knows that. The apostle John has this to say:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1st John 1:8
John knows the limitations of the believers, they still commit sin. However, John also knows that the believers who sinned can still have purification during their lifetime. In the next verse he writes:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:9
We can see the faithfulness of God in the believers. Despite of the believers' limitations, God will forgive them of their sins. No person is instantaneously perfect when he or she becomes a Christian. But in the process of maturing, God always take the active role of changing His children. One of which is found in Hebrews:
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:7-11
From the above verse we read the God disciplines his children to become better Christians. God is in charge of one's spiritual growth.
What are the other verses that deny the existence of Purgatory? I will list some:
1. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:39-43
The thief in the cross, who showed faith during the last minutes of life, was saved by Christ. Christ told him, "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Christ didn't say, "You will be in purgatory first and then you will be with me in paradise." Christ didn't also say, "After considerable time in Purgatory..." Christ said, today.
2. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Hebrews 9:27
This need not any further explanation. When a person dies, he is judged by God. No more room for Purgatory here.
3. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. Luke 16:26
This is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. After their death Lazarus was with Abraham while the rich man was suffering in hell. Christ here teaches that there are only two destinations of man's soul when they die. Christ didn't give room for a state of Purgatory. In fact, the verse specifically states that no one can cross between two realms.
Finally, I would like to say that neither the prophets nor the apostles who died ever taught a state of purification after death.
Therefore, from the above series of verses that we have just read, I confidently say that the Roman Catholic Purgatory is not necessary. Purgatory betrays one's belief that Christ's blood cleanses us from all sins. Purgatory denies God's active role in transforming all believers to become better Christians.
Thank you.
Final
Credit: Entire sentences and paragraphs have been lifted verbatim from articles written by Robert Sungenis, David Pell, Jim Akin, Jim Blackburn, Kenneth Howell, Jason Evert, www.salvationhistory.com, www.calledtocommunion.com, www.catholic.com. I didn't bother to enclose them in quotation marks. The words are theirs; I'm just a compiler.
Opening Statement: Affirmative Side
The Church has only two official teachings concerning purgatory:
o it exists, and
o our prayers help the souls in purgatory.
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. . . The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned (CCC 1030–1031).
It’s a state of being, the continuing process of purgation or purification of the soul after death (Mt 5:26), the evidence of the depth of God’s love for us, who provides a way for us to live with him in heaven forever so long as we die in his friendship, even though not completely prepared for heaven. Indeed, Scripture affirms "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6),” even if it should be "as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).” See also Col 3:5; Rom 6:13,19.
It is a continuation [2 Cor 4:16]of our sanctification began at Justification, specifically at the laver of regeneration called baptism, when we are translated from being “children of wrath” to adopted sons and daughters of God, co heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), “deified” almost (2 Peter 1:4), as befitting our immense dignity, having been made in the image and likeness of God, an acknowledgment that sanctification is a continuous process beginning with the past (1 Cor. 6:11), continuing into the present (1 Thess. 4:3), and going all the way to the future (1 Thess. 5:23), to cease only on the Last Day.
Purgatory is not a second chance after this life where someone who has been too casual with his salvation while on earth (Phil 2:12) can continue working his way to heaven after death. If death catches one in a state of sin, that is, in a God-hating state, that’s it, he’s done for, he’s not going to Purgatory, he’s going to hell. (Rev 21:27; Heb 12:14.)
Sin has a double consequence. Grave sin (1 John 5:16) cuts us off from God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. (Dn 12:2; cf Wis 4:19; Judith 16:21; Mt 18:18; Mt 25:41; Mt 25:46; 2 Thess 1:9; Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43’ Mk 9:45 ff; Rev 20:10.)
On the other hand every sin, even venial (2 Cor 7:1), entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.
These two punishments must not be viewed as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
In other words, our transformation in Christ (Rom 13:14 "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ"), our perfection in the holiness of the Father (1 Pet 1:16 "Be holy, because I (am) holy") is not ended at our physical death.
At this point, an explanation of what temporal punishment is would be helpful:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp
When a person sins, he acquires certain liabilities: the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. Scripture speaks of the former when it pictures guilt as clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool" (Is. 1:18). This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (cf. Ps. 51:4, 9).
We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless" (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil" (Eccl. 12:14).
The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).
When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:
"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.
Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).
In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men "turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" (2 Macc. 12:42).
The reference to the sin being "wholly blotted out" refers to its temporal penalties. The author of 2 Maccabees tells us that for these men Judah "was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness" (verse 45); he believed that these men fell asleep in godliness, which would not have been the case if they were in mortal sin. If they were not in mortal sin, then they would not have eternal penalties to suffer, and thus the complete blotting out of their sin must refer to temporal penalties for their superstitious actions. Judah "took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (verses 43, 46).
Judah not only prayed for the dead, but he provided for them the then-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties: a sin offering. Accordingly, we may take the now-appropriate ecclesial action for lessening temporal penalties— indulgences—and apply them to the dead by way of prayer.
Now, to continue with our main discussion, what happens at death?
[1] Everybody, sooner or later, will die. (Heb 9:27 "It is appointed for men to die once.”)
[2] We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill Rom 2:6 to 7. Now, when we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. This is not the General Judgment that’ll happen on the Last Day. It is a judgment that comes right after death. We know at once what our final destiny will be: heaven or hell. Heaven directly if we die in a state of grace with no venial sin, and with all temporal punishment already paid. Hell if death catches us in a God hating state.
Proof? Heb 9:27 "It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment.”
Lazarus is immediately after death taken into the bosom of Abraham, and Dives immediately consigned to hell, for punishment (Lk 16:22 ff).
Jesus says to the repentant thief: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43).
Judas “arrived at his own place” (Acts 1:25).
Death is, for St. Paul, the gate to blessedness and to be with Christ (Phil 1:23 : “I desire to depart and be with Christ”). Likewise, “we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8).
With death the state of faith ceases and the state of vision commences: 2 Cor 5:7; 1 Cor 13:12.
[3] If, at the particular judgment, a soul, illuminated by the grace of God, finds itself with venial sin (for indeed, “sin clings to us” Heb 12:1) or with temporal punishment due its sins still unpaid, it will gladly desire to undergo a purification. This purification is called PURGATORY.
Proof?
Let’s start with the basic premise, Rev 21:27. Not everyone gets to see heaven while alive, but St. John did, and in describing his vision of heaven, John tells us one thing: "nothing unclean shall enter it (Rev. 21:27).”
By “nothing unclean” is meant that ONLY one who’s righteous may enter heaven. And, by “righteous” is meant one has been made righteous (Lv 19:2; 1 Pet 1:15-16), not merely counted righteous as Protestants believe.
Here is the Protestant belief:
At death Jesus will take up the soul of the deceased saint and escort him to heaven to the Father. Now, inasmuch as Protestants believe that everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is automatically assured of heaven regardless of whether or not sin remains in him, the Protestant saint that Jesus would be escorting to heaven will likely be wallowing in sin.
But, no problem because Christ’s sacrifice was infinitely sufficient, his work of redemption on Calvary had been accomplished, the sinner’s debt fully paid in full and in advance. Jimmy Swaggart puts it "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."
In effect, it doesn’t matter that the saint is wallowing in sin, it was just that the merits of Christ, like a white cloak, would be thrown over the sins of the sinner. God would not look under the cloak, the sinner would remain totally corrupt, but he will go to heaven just the same.
This Protestant belief IS wrong.
God insists 'I will not justify the wicked" (Ex. 23:7), his holiness prevents it. Thus for God to make someone legally righteous, he also must MAKE him actually righteous.
Furthermore,the Greek word δικαιόω (dikaiow) in Rom 6:7, for instance, which, according to Protestants, means “to count righteous” ACTUALLY means “to make righteous.” The implications of this claim is tremendous. Were it true, the entire Protestant belief system will crumble.
Readers may find out more about this potentially huge embarrassment to Protestants by clicking on the link below:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/08/%ce%b4%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9%cf%8c%cf%89-a-morphological-lexical-and-historical-analysis/
And neither could Protestants cite the Lamb’s Book of Life in Rev 21:27 as containing the names of every Protestant who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, for the simple reason that it doesn’t follow that since one’s name was written in the book of life when one came to God and received initial salvation, his name will stay in the book of life until the last day, when one would receive final salvation.
Proof? (Credit Jim Akin.) Scripture indicates in dozens of places that one can lose salvation, and it does so in specific connection with the book of life metaphor.
In Revelation 3:5, Jesus states: "He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
The implication is that if you end up giving in to sin, your name will be blotted out of the book of life and you will be denied before God and the angels, something Jesus elsewhere emphasizes (Matt. 10:33, Luke 12:9).
As Jesus puts it, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13).
But to get back to our exposition.
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap090400.htm
First, we have keep in mind that God is revealed as perfect interior holiness. (Is 6:3 : And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.")
We are called to that SAME holiness.
Lv 19:2 : "Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them: Be holy, for I, the Lord your God, am holy."
1 Pet 1:15-16 : “ As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, ‘Be holy because I (am) holy.’"
But who can stand in the face of the holiness of God? God’s glory is such that nothing DEFILED can stand before him: “For no man sees me and still lives.” Ex 33:18-20.
Yet we know from Paul that in heaven the soul has a vision of God, the soul sees God face to face (1 Cor 13:12), but because of God’s transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is. The only way the soul could is if God himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation, and gives him the capacity for it. So the soul must know God without an image. This can be only if God directly JOINS HIMSELF TO THAT SOUL, to do what an image would do in seeing others.
But how could that be if we are still “unclean"? (Rev 21:27)
Ex 33:18-20 : “Then Moses said, "Do let me see your glory!" He (Yahweh) answered, "I will make all my beauty pass before you, and in your presence I will pronounce my name, 'Lord'; I who show favors to whom I will, I who grant mercy to whom I will. But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives."
Other passages pertaining:
Ps 15:1; Ps 66:18; Heb 12:14; Eph 5:3 ; Rev 21:27 ; Eph 5:25-27.
We are deprived of the vision of God only because of our sinfulness. So long as we’re alive, sin will cling to us (Heb12:1). But Rev 21:27 tells us nothing unclean shall enter heaven, so what’s going to break this impasse?
Fortunately, there is a divine purging fire which can heal us.
1 Cor 3:11-15 : “For no one can lay a foundation…”
Other passages pertaining: Heb 12:29 ;Heb 12:6,10 ; Is 6:5-7 ; 1 Pet 1:7.
Moreover, Jesus implies that our sins can be forgiven in the next world:
Mt 12:32 : “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
And Scripture describes a Jewish practice of praying for the dead:
2 Mc 12:42-46 : “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”
But let me focus on one Bible passage which I think speaks about purgatory clearest:
http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/lastthings/rebutal-white-purgatory1.htm
1 Cor 3:10 to 17
[10]According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --
[13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
[16] Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
[17] If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
Classical Catholic interpretation has always understood 1 Cor 3:15 as referring to the state of purgatory in which the temporal punishment due to sins committed on earth is sustained, as well as the purging of all imperfections not acceptable for entrance into heaven.
The doctrine of purgatory has the unanimous support of the Church Fathers who addressed the matter, either in direct references to an intermediate state prior to heaven, or in reference to prayers for the dead. Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure supported the doctrine of purgatory.
Both purgatory and prayers for the dead were upheld by the major councils, beginning with the Council of Carthage in 394 A.D. to the Council of Trent in 1554 A.D. Evidence of prayers for the dead also appeared in inscriptions on the walls of Christian catacombs in the very early years of the Church. In addition, all the liturgies of the early Church, without exception, made references to prayers for the dead.
The typical evangelical/fundamentalist interpretation of 1 Cor 3:14-15 views it as a preliminary judgment for Christians in which those with an abundance of good works will be personally rewarded with a crown, or some other accolade, while those with an excess of bad works will lose their chance for a personal reward. The rewards depend on the type and amount of good work performed, and is completely independent of salvation, which is assumed has been secured way back. 1 Cor 3:10 to 17 does not support this view.
The most curious aspect about these interpretations of 1 Cor 3:14-15 is that they seem more Catholic than Protestant, and as a result, are not very consistent with sola fide theology. Works are not supposed to be a criterion for how close or far one is from salvation since, in Protestant theology, one is saved strictly by faith, not works.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/refutation-of-james-white-on-1.html
Moreover, the fire that St Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 3:10-15 PURGES. The passage clearly speaks about purifying a person by removing his sins and imperfections.
Purgation of this type is precisely a negative work of getting rid of contamination, just as in metal-working. If the impurities are gotten rid of the final product is more pure.
Likewise with the stains and impurities of sin on human souls. To get rid of them is to purify the person. See, for example, 2 Corinthians 7:1: ". . . let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. "
Compare also the following passages:
Malachi 3:2-3: But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, . . .
Other passages pertaining:
Isaiah 4:3-4; Isaiah 1:25; Isaiah 48:10 ; Psalm 51:7 Daniel 11:35 ; Jeremiah 9:7; Zechariah 13:9 ; Ecclesiastes 12:14 ; 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Note in the last passage how the person is judged based on what he has done. So the person is purified based on his works, which is exactly what we see in 1 Corinthians 3; just with a little bit different terminology.
One might follow the "metal analogy" further and observe that even gold and silver (the better works in Paul's word-picture) have to be refined (see 1 Chron 28:18, 29:4; Ps 12:6; Rev 3:18). The relatively more righteous Christians with more works and faith, therefore, also have to undergo this process of purification and purging.
The language is quite similar in thrust and intent to the passages above. It is a common biblical theme: a purging or refining of God's people: the ones who will be saved. What could be plainer than "saved, but only as through fire." That practically sums up the doctrine of purgatory in six words. To purge one's sins is to purge the person himself, because he has made the sins his own: part of himself.
The passage teaches purgatory. It refers to a "fire" that is refining and "revealing", that will be a "test" for every man's "work" (that's temporal punishment of suffering indeed), a situation where a man will "suffer loss" and yet still be saved. How much clearer does it have to be? Now, of course we won't find a fully-developed medieval conception of purgatory, but it is foolish to expect that anyway, just as it would be to expect to find full Chalcedonian Christology and trinitarianism in all its glorious nuanced complexity. That is true of all doctrines, so why should purgatory be an exception?
The passage clearly speaks about the possibility of one being saved as a direct result of his works. Whenever the Bible reveals what takes place at judgment, it is, I believe, always the case that human works are discussed and judged and made relevant to salvation or damnation.
St. Paul himself makes this crystal-clear in Romans:
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
For he will render to every man according to his works.
And many more.
Matthew 25:31-35: 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 22:12 , ALL plainly speak of the relation between work and salvation.
As the Affirmative Side, I need to establish that the Bible teaches Purgatory.
I think I have done that.
Fourth Draft
Opening Statement: Affirmative Side
The Church has only two official teachings concerning purgatory:
o it exists, and
o our prayers help the souls in purgatory.
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. . . The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned (CCC 1030–1031).
It is a state of being, the continuing process of purgation or purification of the soul after death Mt 5:26, the evidence of the depth of God’s love for us, who provides a way for us to live with him in heaven forever so long as we die in his friendship, even though not completely prepared for heaven. Indeed, Scripture affirms "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6),” even if it should be "as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).”
It is a continuation of our sanctification began at Justification, specifically at the laver of regeneration called baptism, when we are translated from being “children of wrath” to adopted sons and daughters of God, co heirs of Christ, “deified” almost, as befitting our immense dignity, having been made in the image and likeness of God, an acknowledgment that sanctification is a continuous process beginning with the past (1 Cor. 6:11), continuing into the present (1 Thess. 4:3), and going all the way to the future (1 Thess. 5:23), to cease only when we reach heaven.
Purgatory is not a second chance after this life where someone who has been too casual with his salvation while on earth Phil 2:12 can continue working his way to heaven after death. If death catches one in a state of sin, that is, in a God hating state, that’s it, he’s done for, he’s not going to Purgatory, he’s going to hell. Rev 21:27; Heb 12:14.
The Church teaches:
Sin has a double consequence. Grave sin 1 John 5:16 cuts us off from God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. Dn 12:2; cf Wis 4:19; Judith 16:21; Mt 18:18; Mt 25:41; Mt 25:46; 2 Thess 1:9; Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43’ Mk 9:45 ff; Rev 20:10
On the other hand every sin, even venial 2 Cor 7:1, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.
These two punishments must not be viewed as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
In other words, our transformation in Christ (Rom 13:14, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ"), our perfection in the holiness of the Father (1 Pet 1:16, "Be holy, because I (am) holy") is not ended at our physical death
What happens at death?
[1] Everybody, sooner or later, will die. Heb 9:27 "It is appointed for men to die once”
[2] We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. Now, when we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. This is not the General Judgment that’ll happen on the Last Day. It is a judgment that comes right after death. We know at once what our final destiny will be: heaven or hell. Heaven directly if we die in a state of grace with no venial sin, and with all temporal punishment already paid. Hell if death catches us in a God hating state.
Proof? Heb 9:27 "It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment.” Lazarus is immediately after death taken into the bosom of Abraham, and Dives immediately consigned to hell, for punishment Lk 16:22 ff. Jesus says to the repentant thief: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” Lk 23:43. Judas “arrived at his own place” Acts 1:25. Death is, for St. Paul, the gate to blessedness and to be with Christ Phil 1:23 : “I desire to depart and be with Christ.” Likewise, “we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” 2 Cor 5:8. With death the state of faith ceases and the state of vision commences: 2 Cor 5:7; 1 Cor 13:12.
[3] If, at the particular judgment, a soul, illuminated by the grace of God, finds itself with venial sin *for indeed, “sin clings to us” Heb 12:1 or with temporal punishment due its sins still unpaid, it will gladly desire to undergo a purification. This purification is called PURGATORY.
Proof?
Let’s start with the basic premise, Rev 21:27. Not everyone gets to see heaven while alive, but St. John did, and in describing his vision of heaven, John tells us one thing: "nothing unclean shall enter it (Rev. 21:27).”
By “nothing unclean” is meant that ONLY one who’s righteous may enter heaven. And, by “righteous” is meant one has been made righteous Lv 19:2; 1 Pet 1:15 to 16, not merely counted righteous as Protestants believe.
Here is the Protestant belief:
At death Jesus will take up the soul of the deceased saint and escort him to heaven to the Father. Now, inasmuch as Protestants believe that everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is automatically assured of heaven regardless of whether or not sin remains in him, the Protestant saint that Jesus would be escorting to heaven will likely be wallowing in sin.
But, no problem because Christ’s sacrifice was infinitely sufficient, his work of redemption on Calvary had been accomplished, the sinner’s debt fully paid in full and in advance. Jimmy Swaggart puts it "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."
In effect, it doesn’t matter that the saint is wallowing in sin, it was just that the merits of Christ, like a white cloak, would be thrown over the sins of the sinner. God would not look under the cloak, the sinner would remain totally corrupt, but he will go to heaven just the same.
This Protestant belief IS wrong.
The Greek word δικαιόω (dikaiow) in Gen 15, for instance, which, according to them, means “to count righteous” ACTUALLY means “to make righteous.” The implications of this claim is tremendous. Were it true, the entire Protestant belief system will crumble, with it their rejection of the Catholic doctrine of Justification.
Here’s David Pell of www.calledtocommunion.com :
In his article Are We Justified By Faith Alone? – What Still Divides Us: A Protestant & Roman Catholic Debate, Dr. Michael Horton, J. Gresham Machen Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary California, writes:
The verbal ending of dikaiow is declarative; if the biblical writers intended by ‘justification’ a process of moral transformation, there is a perfectly good verbal ending for that sort of thing in Greek: adzo rather than ow. For instance, ‘to make holy’ is translated from the Greek verb, ‘hagiodzo,’ and this word is never rendered ‘to justify.’ When the biblical writers refer to justification, they use the declarative ending; when they refer to sanctification, they use the progressive ending. If it is good enough of a distinction for the biblical writers themselves, surely we should have not trouble with the Bible’s own language.
Here I want to focus, as I stated in my first paragraph, on the verbal structure of the Greek word δικαιόω. Contrary to Dr. Horton’s contention above, the Greek verb suffix -οω can be, and very often is, factitive, a fancy word for “making/causing something,” from the Latin facere, to make or do. NB: throughout this article I use the words factitive, transformative and causal almost interchangeably as opposites of declarative.
In Herbert Smyth’s Greek Grammar, perhaps the definitive Greek grammar text, he provides in his section on contract verbs (verbs with an extra vowel in the suffix which cause a vowel contraction) eight examples of verbs ending in the -όω suffix. Of these eight verbs, seven can easily be construed as causative, factitive or transformative. All of these verbs follow the pattern in which the suffix has been added to an adjective or noun, indicating what kind of state the verb is producing in its object.
1) δουλόω, from the noun δοῦλος (slave), means “I enslave.”
2) ἐλευθερόω, from the adjective ἐλεύθερος (free), means “I set free.”
3) ζυγόω, from the noun ζυγόν (yoke), means “I yoke/put under the yoke.”
These are the examples given in Smyth’s Grammar, and they can be found here. Of course, they are not the only examples. Just off the top of my head I can think of two other examples:
Only one of Smyth’s eight examples of verbs with the -όω suffix has a meaning of “account” or “declare” the object to be the noun/adjective from which the verb is built.
ἀξιόω, “I think or deem worthy/fit/right,” from the adjective ἄξιος. It is the way we would say that we deem a person worthy of a thing, or we deem it right to do something. Thus it also comes to take a simple accusative object with the meaning “to honor.”
Second, Mark Wilson, in his book Mastering New Testament Greek Vocabulary Through Semantic Domains, points out in his short prefatory remarks on Greek word construction, “Verbs expressing causation are formed with -όω, -αίνω, -ύνω, and -ίζω” (Wilson, 15).
In short, at the very least, the lexical evidence does not support the claim that δικαιόω means justification by extra nos imputation rather than justification by infusion. As for the ways in which justification could be described in both transformative and declarative terms, I’ll leave that to the contributors who are better with systematic theology.
From this we can conclude that there is no lexical problem with translating δικαιόω causatively. It is built on the same pattern (noun/adjective + the -όω causative/factitive suffix) that governs all of the verbs listed above (its root being the adjective δίκαιος, “just”). If you search for δικαιόω at the Perseus Project’s online version of Liddell & Scott, the premier research dictionary of Ancient Greek, the simplified definition that you get in the search results is “to make just” 1. It gives as its first example a passage from Pindar which reads, νόμος…δικαιῶν τὸ βιαιότατον, “law…justifying [reforming, making just] the most violent of men.” Here the context seems to be one of morally reforming the wrong-doer.
And neither could Protestants cite the Lamb’s Book of Life in Rev 21:27 as containing the names of every Protestant who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, for the simple reason that it doesn’t follow that since one’s name was written in the book of life when one came to God and received initial salvation, his name will stay in the book of life until the last day, when one would receive final salvation.
Proof? (Credit Jim Akin.) Scripture indicates in dozens of places that one can lose salvation, and it does so in specific connection with the book of life metaphor.
In Revelation 3:5, Jesus states: "He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
The implication is that if you end up giving in to sin, your name will be blotted out of the book of life and you will be denied before God and the angels, something Jesus elsewhere emphasizes (Matt. 10:33, Luke 12:9).
As Jesus puts it, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13).
But to get back to our exposition.
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap090400.htm
First, we have keep in mind that God is revealed as perfect interior holiness. Is 6:3 : And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory."
We are called to that SAME holiness.
Lv 19:2 : "Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them: Be holy, for I, the Lord your God, am holy."
1 Pet 1:15-16 : “ As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, ‘Be holy because I (am) holy.’"
But who can stand in the face of the holiness of God? God’s glory is such that nothing DEFILED can stand before him: “For no man sees me and still lives.” Ex 33:18 to 20.
Yet we know from Paul that in heaven the soul has a vision of God, the soul sees God face to face: 1 Cor 13:12, but because of God’s transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is. The only way the soul could is if God himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. So the soul must know God without an image. This can be only if God directly JOINS HIMSELF TO THAT SOUL, to do what an image would do in seeing others.
But how could that be if we are still “unclean"? Rev 21:27
Ex 33:18-20 : “Then Moses said, "Do let me see your glory!" He (Yahweh) answered, "I will make all my beauty pass before you, and in your presence I will pronounce my name, 'Lord'; I who show favors to whom I will, I who grant mercy to whom I will. But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives."
Other passages pertaining:
Ps 15:1; Ps 66:18; Heb 12:14; Eph 5:3 ; Rev 21:27 ; Eph 5:25-27
We are deprived of the vision of God only because of our sinfulness. So long as we’re alive, sin will cling to us Heb12:1 But Rev 21:27 tells us nothing unclean shall enter heaven, so what’s going to break this impasse?
Fortunately, there is a divine purging fire which can heal us.
1 Cor 3:11-15 : “For no one can lay a foundation…”
Other passages pertaining: Heb 12:29 ;Heb 12:6,10 ; Is 6:5-7 ; 1 Pet 1:7
Moreover, Jesus implies that our sins can be forgiven in the next world.
Mt 12:32 : “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
And Scripture describes a Jewish practice of praying for the dead.
2 Mc 12:42-46 : “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”
But let me focus on one Bible passage which I think speaks about purgatory clearest:
http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/lastthings/rebutal-white-purgatory1.htm
1 Cor 3:10 to 17
[10]According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --
[13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
[16] Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
[17] If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
Classical Catholic interpretation has always understood 1 Cor 3:15 as referring to the state of purgatory in which the temporal punishment due to sins committed on earth is sustained, as well as the purging of all imperfections not acceptable for entrance into heaven.
The doctrine of purgatory has the unanimous support of the Church Fathers who addressed the matter, either in direct references to an intermediate state prior to heaven, or in reference to prayers for the dead. Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure supported the doctrine of purgatory.
Both purgatory and prayers for the dead were upheld by the major councils, beginning with the Council of Carthage in 394 A.D. to the Council of Trent in 1554 A.D. Evidence of prayers for the dead also appeared in inscriptions on the walls of Christian catacombs in the very early years of the Church. In addition, all the liturgies of the early Church, without exception, made references to prayers for the dead.
The typical evangelical/fundamentalist interpretation of 1 Cor 3:14-15 views it as a preliminary judgment for Christians in which those with an abundance of good works will be personally rewarded with a crown, or some other accolade, while those with an excess of bad works will lose their chance for a personal reward. The rewards depend on the type and amount of good work performed, and is completely independent of salvation, which is assumed has been secured way back. 1 Cor 3:10 to 17 does not support this view.
The most curious aspect about these interpretations of 1 Cor 3:14-15 is that they seem more Catholic than Protestant, and as a result, are not very consistent with sola fide theology. Works are not supposed to be a criterion for how close or far one is from salvation since, in Protestant theology, one is saved strictly by faith, not works.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/refutation-of-james-white-on-1.html
Moreover, the fire that St Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 3:10 to 15 PURGES. The passage clearly speaks about purifying a person by removing his sins and imperfections.
Purgation of this type is precisely a negative work of getting rid of contamination, just as in metal-working. If the impurities are gotten rid of the final product is more pure.
Likewise with the stains and impurities of sin on human souls. To get rid of them is to purify the person. See, for example, 2 Corinthians 7:1: ". . . let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. "
Compare also the following passages:
Malachi 3:2-3: But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, . . .
Other passages pertaining:
Isaiah 4:3-4; Isaiah 1:25; Isaiah 48:10 ; Psalm 51:7 Daniel 11:35 ; Jeremiah 9:7; Zechariah 13:9 ; Ecclesiastes 12:14 ; 2 Corinthians 5:10
Note in the last passage how the person is judged based on what he has done. So the person is purified based on his works, which is exactly what we see in 1 Corinthians 3; just with a little bit different terminology.
One might follow the "metal analogy" further and observe that even gold and silver (the better works in Paul's word-picture) have to be refined (see 1 Chron 28:18, 29:4; Ps 12:6; Rev 3:18). The relatively more righteous Christians with more works and faith, therefore, also have to undergo this process of purification and purging.
The language is quite similar in thrust and intent to the passages above. It is a common biblical theme: a purging or refining of God's people: the ones who will be saved. What could be plainer than "saved, but only as through fire." That practically sums up the doctrine of purgatory in six words. To purge one's sins is to purge the person himself, because he has made the sins his own: part of himself.
The passage teaches purgatory. It refers to a "fire" that is refining and "revealing", that will be a "test" for every man's "work" (that's temporal punishment of suffering indeed), a situation where a man will "suffer loss" and yet still be saved. How much clearer does it have to be? Now, of course we won't find a fully-developed medieval conception of purgatory, but it is foolish to expect that anyway, just as it would be to expect to find full Chalcedonian Christology and trinitarianism in all its glorious nuanced complexity. That is true of all doctrines, so why should purgatory be an exception?
The passage clearly speaks about the possibility of one being saved as a direct result of his works. Whenever the Bible reveals what takes place at judgment, it is, I believe, always the case that human works are discussed and judged and made relevant to salvation or damnation.
St. Paul himself makes this crystal-clear in Romans:
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
And many more.
Matthew 25:31-35: 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 22:12 , ALL plainly speak of the relation between work and salvation.
As the Affirmative Side, I need to establish that the Bible teaches Purgatory.
This I set out to do first by pointing out that, at death we are judged instantly and receive our reward: heaven or hell. Unlike Protestants, however, Catholics believe that only those who have been made righteous, not merely declared righteous, shall enter heaven; thus, the need for Purgatory.
My task is to support with Bible proof each claim made each step of the way.
I think I have done that.
Third DRAFT
Credit: Entire sentences and paragraphs have been lifted verbatim from articles in Catholic Answers written by Jason Evert, Jim Blackburn, and Kennth Howell. I didn't bother to enclose them in quotation marks. The words are theirs; I'm just a compiler.
Opening statement: Affirmative side
We have this debate today because Protestants have a view of heaven that CONTRADICTS Scripture.
At death, according to them, Jesus will take up the soul of the deceased saint and escort him to heaven to the Father. Now, inasmuch as Protestants believe that everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is automatically assured of heaven regardless of whether or not sin remains in him, the Protestant saint that Jesus would be escorting to heaven will likely be wallowing in sin.
But, no problem, because, according to Protestants, Christ’s sacrifice was infinitely sufficient, his work of redemption on Calvary had been accomplished, the sinner’s debt fully paid in full and in advance. Jimmy Swaggart insists: "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."
In effect, it doesn’t matter that the saint is wallowing in sin, the merits of Christ, like a white cloak, would be thrown over his sins anyway. God would not look under the cloak, the sinner would remain totally corrupt, but he will go to heaven just the same. It’s that, because the Bible says so.
Does it? We will know soon enough.
DEBATE MECHANICS
As the affirmative side, I have the burden of proof, but, no problem, because all I have I have to do is to present but one Bible passage, and I will have accomplished my objective.
One thing I ask: that all arguments placed on the table be supported with Bible proof. I will reject any argument offered that’s not supported with Bible proof.
Likewise, it is really God who’s behind every word, and God does not make mistakes, nor contradict himself. No passage in the Bible, therefore, contradicts another, even if the Bible is made up seventy-two different books written by 40 different people over at least 1,600 years. I’d appreciate it, therefore, were my opponent to address EACH Bible passage I place on the table, the same way I will do his.
BIBLICAL PROOF OF PURGATORY
So, does the Bible speak about the existence of Purgatory?
Understand that Purgatory is not a second chance after this life. If death catches one in a state of sin, that is, in a God hating state, that’s it, he’s done for, he’s not going to Purgatory, he’s going to hell. Meaning that Purgatory is not a place where someone who has been too casual with his salvation on earth can continue working his way to heaven after death.
"For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8–9).”. The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, inasmuch as merit stops at death. Only while alive could one merit salvation, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of whether God chooses to purify men while alive on earth or after death, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.
This is possible because although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago on the Cross, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. Sanctification is an ongoing process.
SO WHAT IS PURGATORY?
Everybody, sooner or later, will die.
Now, when we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb. 9:27).” We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill.
We know at once what our final destiny will be: heaven or hell. Heaven directly if we die in a state of grace with no venial sin, and with all temporal punishment already paid. Hell if death catches us in a God hating state.
If, at the particular judgment, a soul, illuminated by the grace of God, finds itself with venial sin or with temporal due its sins still unpaid, it will gladly desire to undergo a purification. This purification is called PURGATORY.
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, we must understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin cuts us off from God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin.
On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.
These two punishments must not be viewed as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. (CCC 1472)
Unlike the damned, those in the state of purgatory have the joy of knowing that, upon purification, they will enter eternal life in heaven.
BIBLICAL PROOF FOR PURGATORY
Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5; 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life.
This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist?
NOTHING UNCLEAN SHALL ENTER HEAVEN
Not everyone gets to see heaven while alive, but St. John did, and in describing his vision of heaven, John tells us ONE THING: "nothing unclean shall enter it (Rev. 21:27).”
Likewise, the sacred author of Hebrews tells us to strive for "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Jesus himself tells us, "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).
From these, we see that cleanliness/holiness is a prerequisite for entering heaven. If a person dies in an unclean state, i.e., in a state of sin, he cannot enter heaven (at least not in his present state).
But wait. Doesn’t that seem unjust? If an otherwise good Christian has lived a holy life but then sins just before death, is he doomed to eternity in hell?
On the face of it, it would seem so. Fortunately, Scripture provides us with answers to this question.
DIFFERENT DEGREES OF SIN
The answer depends, at least in part, on the severity of the sin. There are different degrees of sin, some serious enough to result in eternal death, others not that serious. For example, James describes a kind of sin progression: "Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death" (Jas. 1:14–15).
Notice the progression: desire and temptation come first, then sin, then deadly sin.
Similarly, Jesus taught his disciples about different consequences for varying degrees of sin: "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire" (Matt. 5:22). Anger results in judgment, insults result in the council, and saying "You fool!" results in the hell of fire.
Also clear, though, is that some sin can lead to eternal death. 1 John 5:16-17: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." "Life" for those whose sin is not mortal? Clearly not all sin leads to eternal death.
Likewise, Lk 12:47-48: "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Even so, most Christians would agree that if such sin is repented before physical death, eternal death is averted, and the person’s final destination is heaven. That being said, Scripture indicates that even after repentance temporal consequences of sin remain.
For example, 2 Samuel tells us of the remaining consequence of David’s adultery and murder even after his repentance: "David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die’" (2 Sam. 12:13–14). David lost his child as a consequence of sins that he had already repented.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains such consequences this way:
Sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified. . . . This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin (CCC 1472).
IT’S THE STATE OF ONE’S HEART AT DEATH THAT COUNTS
So what about the otherwise holy man who dies in a state of sin? What is his eternal destination? Remember, there are only two options: eternal life (heaven) and eternal death (hell). Because nothing unholy can enter heaven, it would seem that this poor man’s eternal destiny must be hell. And because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23), hell would seem to be the destiny of all men.
But God is way more merciful than that. As we have seen, there are different degrees of sin. Some are deadly; some are not. If the man’s sin is not deadly, by definition, his eternal destination must be heaven. Even if his sin is deadly but he repents before death (even though, like David, the consequences remain), his eternal destination still must be heaven.
In either case, it only stands to reason that his sin or its consequences will somehow be dealt with after his death, thereby transforming him from unclean to clean before his entrance into heaven. This cleansing, however it may come about, is what the Catholic Church calls purgatory.
The Catechism teaches:
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. . . . The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned (CCC 1030–1031).
PURGATORY IS STRICTLY BIBLICAL
The word purgatory cannot be found in the Bible, but the concept of purgatory is clearly implied by the sacred writers. Without it Scripture would seem to contradict itself.
For example, Jesus seems to indicate that some consequences of sin may be remitted after death when he tells us, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32). Why mention "this age" and "the age to come" if some sins cannot be expiated in either age?
The author of 2 Maccabees documents Judas Maccabeus and other Jews praying for the remission of the sins of men who had died in battle: "Under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. . . . They turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" (2 Macc. 12:40–42).
Why pray in such a way unless at least some sins or their consequences can be cleansed after death? If the dead men had already reached their eternal destination, then praying for them would be futile—prayer wouldn’t help those in heaven and couldn’t help those in hell.
But if the dead destined for heaven had not yet reached their final destination, prayers for them may help speed up or lighten the severity of their preparation for heaven. The author explains: "For if [Judas Maccabeus] were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44–45).
Paul mentions a similar practice of the early Christians that he calls "being baptized on behalf of the dead." We’re not told exactly what this practice entailed—and Paul does not necessarily condone it—but it provides clear evidence that early Christians believed they could do something helpful for the dead. "What do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" (1 Cor. 15:29). In other words, if no one who dies in an unholy state can attain eternal life, why act in their behalf?
Paul also prays for Onesiphorus, who seems to be dead: "May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me—may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus" (2 Tim. 1:16–18).
And finally, Paul seems to give us a glimpse of purgatory in his parable of a building:
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor. 3:10–15).
Clearly Paul is talking here about men destined for heaven, because even those whose work is "burned up" will be saved. Gold, silver, and precious stones are analogous to good works, while wood, hay, and straw exemplify those impurities or elements of unholiness that need to be cleansed before we enter into heaven.
So clearly Scripture teaches of the possibility of dealing with at least some kinds of sins or with some of the consequences of sins after death in preparation for heaven. This is purgatory, and it is evidence of the depth of God’s love for us. If we die in his friendship, even though not completely prepared for heaven, God still provides a way for us to live with him forever.
If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.
Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.
SANCTIFICATION IS A PROCESS
No doubt my opponent will bring up 1 Cor 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
But, notice, how, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Read the passage:“May the God of peace himself sanctify you WHOLLY” indicating a process that doesn’t stop until it is complete, in other words, whole. And notice what St. Paul says: “…and may your spirit and soul BE KEPT sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Clearly, this is something that’s not done in an INSTANT.
Notice, also, how 1 Thess 4:3 speaks of sanctification in the present: “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity” Meaning, that sanctification is an ONGOING PROCESS which stops only when one finally gets to heaven.
Further on, Scripture clearly speaks of sanctification as a process, for instance the word for “believe” in John 3:16 which, in Greek “pisteou” signifies an ongoing process, not a onetime event.
SANCTIFICATION INVOLVES SUFFERING
Protestants will deny this, insisting that the Catholic belief about sanctification involving suffering diminishes from Christ’s completed redemption on the Cross, but sanctification often involves suffering.
Here’s St. Paul: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1–12).
Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ’s afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).
BUT DIDN’T CHRIST PAY ALL PUNISHMENT FOR SIN, MAKING PURGATORY UNNECESSARY?
Some maintain that repentance takes away all temporal punishment due sin . But the Bible disagrees: God takes away the eternal punishment, but some temporal punishment may remain.
In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13–14).
In the New Testament, Christ insists, "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25–26).
Note,likewise,that Christian women still experience the temporal punishment of birth pangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s original sin (Rom. 5:12–21).
It is not true, however, what Protestants say about the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice being diminished because God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. In Hebrews, the sacred author tells us that while "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant (Heb 12:11), “ it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6),” even if it should be "as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).”
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology firmly believes that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul that isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections first. The cleansing occurs in purgatory.
Indeed, that purging is necessary is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
δικαιόω (dikaiow)
At the heart of this Protestant claim about Purgatory being unnecessary is the Protestant belief about justification being forensic, i.e., one is DECLARED righteous, not actually MADE righteous as Catholics believe. Protestants believe that anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is DECLARED saved, and, IS, in fact, saved,
With a belief like that, what do you need Purgatory for?
Protestants have a little problem, however. The Greek word δικαιόω (dikaiow), which, according to them, means “to count righteous” ACTUALLY means “to make righteous”
The implications of this claim is tremendous. Were it true, the entire Protestant belief system will crumble, with it their rejection of the Catholic doctrine of Justification.
To read more about δικαιόω (dikaiow), google www.calledtocommunion.com
To prove that Purgatory is Biblical, all I need to do is cite at least one Bible verse which says so. I believe I’ve done that.
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